interesting choice of vocab words...that is crazy! i mean, if it was a parochial school then i would understand. but it's a public school? how about we throw in Buddha and Muhammad ont eh vocab list too so as not to discriminate......LOL!

anyways, excellent post....i agree with every word you wrote.

oh and i wanted to tell you that i have really been enjoying your tblog Blog! :-)

Airing my dirty laundry at: Peacocks on Leashes

If it please the court, my client Lucifer submits this amicus curiae brief.

Whether the child in the Bible Belt, or almost anywhere else in these United States, subscribes to the Christian religion or not, that child is going to be bombarded willy-nilly by Christian imagery and symbols. They are as much a part of the secular celebration of what any sane demon would call Yule as poinsettias and tinsel. It would be a disservice to children to NOT teach these words as part of the essential vocabulary of one who has to navigate the shops, and the media, and the greetings of friends and neighbors, during this season.

The words come with definitions. If the definition of Jesus is "The Savior of all humankind", I object. If it is "The principal figure of Christianity, said to have been born on Christmas Day in the year 6 BCE", I don't. The latter is a fact, the former is a catechism.

It would be preferable, of course, if the list also included words associated with (for example) Hannukah and Kwanzaa. But the fact is, neither of these holidays has any impact on sales figures. Ergo, they appear rarely in the public sphere. And of course, nothing not intimately associated with the sweet sound of ka-CHING is worth teaching.

As for the actual birthdate of Jesus of Nazareth, the gospels of Matthew and Luke are silent, as are all other documents (such as the Infancy Gospel of James) from the 1st century CE of which I have any knowledge. Some sober Christians argue that the extant birth narratives are all fantasies (you mentioned Mithras), intended to sell (yes, that says sell) The Way (according to Acts, the first name for the Christian movement) to Gentiles familiar with the images and metaphors associated with worship of the Greek gods.

In summation, my client Lucifer suggests that you attend to the message underlying the presentation of words like Jesus, Mary, Joseph, et al. rather than to the mere fact that they have been presented. Lucifer would have been here himself to make this presentation, but he regrets that he is otherwise engaged. He had to attend to a recent large delivery of the souls of those who, in life, had adhered to the Christian Coalition.

Modelmom, yep. Public school. Who sets their calendar according to the harvest and the local Catholic school. We can't manage a Spring Break, but there's a good chunk of time off school at Easter.

"If it please the court, my client Lucifer submits this amicus curiae brief."

Sir, your client is not a friend of this court, however the arguments presented within are deemed to be of merit, and consideration will be given to them. :D

You argued something very similar to what my husband said. Christianity is what keeps this nation going. It's engraved on plaques at the courthouse, it's in the seals for many cities, and it's so deeply embedded in the very makeup of our nation that it's almost impossible to remove. Whether that was the intent of the founding fathers is irrelevant. All of this I can tolerate. In fact, I encourage it.

I am not nearly so obsessed with WHAT my kids believe as WHY they believe it. If it's because little Johnny and Jenny down the street believes it- not interested. My mother has been hauling my kids to church. Church is not the problem. My daughter coming home and telling me that God makes popcorn, Christmas lights, and toys is. Seriously, this has actually happened, proving exactly what you said.

I don't personally give a damn what the sales are like for the season. Let the whole economy take a nose dive. If Jesus is just an excuse to drive up the sales figures for the year (which he is), then you can keep him. I'm not interested. There isn't a god I worship that says "Buy crap in my name." If Jesus is an excuse to show charity, love, and peace to the rest of mankind, then I'm much more interested. Something tells me that particular god has gone the way of Mithras. Therefore, the entire terminology is flawed, and I object to it being taught in school. I would object to them teaching financial responsibility for the same reason, BTW. What they would teach the masses about financial responsibility has nothing to do with my family's values, and I would complain just as loudly.

If I am to attend to the meaning behind the words, see my latest post and give freely. The dislike for the words is because I do not think that others put nearly so much thought into what they mean. The words are throw-away words, used by people who haven't taken the time to find out their meaning.

"Some sober Christians argue that the extant birth narratives are all fantasies (you mentioned Mithras), intended to sell (yes, that says sell) The Way (according to Acts, the first name for the Christian movement) to Gentiles familiar with the images and metaphors associated with worship of the Greek gods."

This certainly wasn't the first instance. The Greco-Roman Mithras evolved from the MUCH earlier Mithra. Get this- he was the mediator between Ahura Mazda (the uncreated Creator) and the Earth. Sound familiar? Something tells me the Zoroastrians borrowed from an earlier time too. And that whatever the dominant religion is two thousand years from now, it will have more than a few similarities.

Christianity is what keeps this nation going.

Probably, but for me it's less a driver than a comfortable cushion. A set of shared words and phrases. If it drove our country, we would have tried to solve the social problems leading up to 9/11 (see here) , instead of lashing out at the people who did, and a whole lot more of the people who didn't, have anything to do with it.

I don't personally give a damn what the sales are like for the season. Let the whole economy take a nose dive.

Wish I could agree. Unfortunately, it's been tried. The result was the Great Depression. Trust me. We don't want to go there.

If Jesus is an excuse to show charity, love, and peace to the rest of mankind, then I'm much more interested. Something tells me that particular god has gone the way of Mithras.

Fortunately, he hasn't. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have much influence on textbook or curriculum writers.

What they would teach the masses about financial responsibility has nothing to do with my family's values

I would regard this as fundamentally different. Religion is a belief system, yours is (I hope) as good as mine. Financial responsibility should be based on observation and deduction. I would expect an expert opinion to be better than mine. Of course, there's the issue of whether that expert opinion can be accurately conveyed in the public schools, given their current state ...

And that whatever the dominant religion is two thousand years from now, it will have more than a few similarities.

In the year 2525 ...

Probably, but for me it's less a driver than a comfortable cushion. A set of shared words and phrases. If it drove our country, we would have tried to solve the social problems leading up to 9/11 (see here) , instead of lashing out at the people who did, and a whole lot more of the people who didn't, have anything to do with it.

You're right. Let me rephrase. Xtianity drives the nation. All the trappings of Christianity without all the messy Christ-like compassion.

"Wish I could agree. Unfortunately, it's been tried. The result was the Great Depression. Trust me. We don't want to go there."

No. WE don't. But I stand by what I said. I don't care. I will do what it takes for my family, or I will die trying. I could make the argument that I'm already doing exactly that.

"I would regard this as fundamentally different. Religion is a belief system, yours is (I hope) as good as mine. Financial responsibility should be based on observation and deduction. I would expect an expert opinion to be better than mine. Of course, there's the issue of whether that expert opinion can be accurately conveyed in the public schools, given their current state ..."

Financial responsibility, as taught in public schools would dictate that I live in a capitalist nation, and should be the best capitalist I can. It would tell me that hard work and sound investments will give me one million dollars by the time I retire. During that time, I should buy as many things as I can to stimulate the economy and help the nation succeed. For personal financial responsibility, the opposite is true. Hard work makes other people rich. Sound investments do not grow fast enough and to become "rich" you have to play aggressively with your money. One million dollars may not be enough by the time I retire. And buying things will never make me rich or happy. And while most people are more than happy to work for that one million dollar dangling carrot, that isn't my goal, and I hope it isn't what my children want either. But on the other hand, it's not advice that most people should follow. I don't think it's so much whether the expert opinion can be conveyed, as much as whether they choose to convey such a message.

Personally, I want my children educated on all things, including historical religious figures like Jesus. I don't want them ignorant and unable to carry on a conversation or debate with other people. I really do not see the big deal. If I were to approach the school, I might ask them to include a larger variety of historical religious figures.

A Voice From Within
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And until the teacher can send home a note that doesn't say, "Its time for the school carnival again!" or "We would like a parent volunteer to come to the circus with Mrs. XXXX and I." the school has no business teaching my kids subjective topics. 2+2 will always equal 4, the correct grammar for answering the telephone is to say "This is she." and our first President was George Washington. These are facts and they must be understood to have any more advanced knowledge on the subject. But who is God? Ask a Christian, a Pagan, and an Atheist the same question, and you will get a different answer. Furthermore, most people have no interest in finding out the more advanced knowledge as far as religion is concerned. They will make a grand show of pretending to, but in the end, they want the simple, easy answers. That's why the principles of electricity are taught in school but wiring isn't. It isn't something that will have any practical application in most people's lives.

Finally, my daughter hasn't entered school yet and she's perfectly capable of carrying on a conversation about who Jesus is. But she can't yet spell her own name. So I reiterate, if you want your children taught about Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and God, by all means, take them to church. I consider it far more essential that school time be spent teaching her how to write the four letters in her name in the correct order.