Paper on Romans 7:14-25
Paper on Romans 7:14-25
The purpose of this paper is to examine some of the many different interpretations of Romans 7:14-25. There are many godly men who have spent far more time in the Word of God than I have. So in looking at these interpretations I give the utmost respect and consideration to their view point. However, in the end I will give a summary statement of the view point that I believe to be the proper interpretation of the text at hand.
According to John Murray, there has been a “deep-seated difference of judgment in the history of interpretation
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Oh my gosh...
Who are you? and what have you done with Cashads?
I'm kidding... actually I kind of enjoyed your blog. I went to a Christian college for 2 yrs. and we had to write stuff like this all the time... brings back lots of memories. ;-)
American Idol Madness / MySpace or Yours
I love your comment!!!
your advice has been so helpful...and the comments you leave are great!!! I am currently at a christian college and I play basketball for the school so I am having a great time...I had to do this paper, and figured for the time I put into it I should post it...even though I used a lot of quotes, cause the paper is not suppose to be my view point, but a good interpretation of this passage, even though I agree with the interpretation on the references I used, etc...However, I loved what you said...Who are you? and what have you done with Cashads...that was great!!! I love having a good time and writing stuff that is funny and ridiculous as well as I want to show that there is a side of me that is spiritual and some what mature...
From RATE MY BODY to Romans...
quite a big step...;-) But it's nice to see another "more-clothed" side of you... lol...
I always liked reading Bible commentary (I know I'm weird)...sometimes I even like it more than reading the actual passage... which is not a good habit to get into, I guess.
Bible college was fun for me too... I didn't play sports, but I was involved in concert choir and that was probably one of the best experiences I've ever had...
Have fun ... and oh yeah...don't be such a stranger to BP...:)
American Idol Madness / MySpace or Yours
I was wondering the same thing ...
... like Bill Cosby's Noah: "Right. Who is this really? Am I on Candid Camera??"
I sometimes wonder if dense theological arguments like this might have exasperated Jesus of Nazareth were he confronted with them. Like his response to the "wife of seven brothers" question: "You're constantly missing the point!" (Scholar's Version translation)
Paul's "flesh" is the self, the individual, which seeks to better itself, whatever it takes, whomever else it hurts. Paul's "spirit" is the sense of community, which seeks to "belong", whatever it takes, even to the point of hurting the self. The tension between the two is common to, and observable in, every social animal, not just humans.
It is not possible always to sacrifice the self for the community. You will starve. It is not possible always to sacrifice the community for the sake of self. You will be executed. It is not even possible to identify how to walk the tightrope between these two extremes, for the rope is constantly being whipped out from under you. In time of plenty, you can eat well and still prosper in the community. In time of famine, you had better eat less well and share what you have, or you will be under siege alone.
The human always faces that tension between "self" and "community". Even the saint, who values the community (which is embedded metaphorically in "God's will" - be with the community, ignore yourself and, like the lilies of the field, you will be clothed) above all things. still will feel that tension.
The "sinner" rejects the community, and both the help and the hurts the community can provide/inflict. He is "out". "Unregenerate." ('Course he might be "in" with some other community ... but let's not go there right now.)
The "saint" has become sick and tired of being "out", and is prepared to accept the community with its helps and hurts. Being "out" has exhausted him ("he is dead to sin"). But he's still going to feel stress, like wishing to show off his body to pretty girls in a blog but being constrained by the community's rules on the subject. :)
I could write lots more, but ... the time ... This is a pretty deep and dense subject. I wonder what your Christian college teachers are likely to think of this viewpoint (hardly adequately expressed here).
Chief you missed the TRUTH!!!
o ceallaigh...great comment, and very interesting...but wow, way off the mark as far as the interpretation of that passage is concerned.
However, my writing skills suck, and your comment and some of your blogs show how good of a writer you are.
However, the Apostle Paul, is dealing with a tension of his "old man" verses his "new man"...the old man is all that he was in Adam, the man responsible for bringing in sin to the human race... that "old man" will be with everyone, even those who truly become christians, by putting their faith in the finished work of the "new man" Christ Jesus,...As you read in Galatians 5:17...These two "natures" so to speak are against each other...This battle so to speak is only raging in those who have both the "old man" and the "new man"...so if you are not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ or if you are an animal....sorry but this battle doesn't concern you at all...unless you wrongfully interpret the passage.
At least I got my question answered
No, your writing skills don't "suck". There's lots lots worse on here. And if I'm so good, why ain't I rich? :) :( Note that I do have the (dubious) advantages of thirty years and two degrees over you. Cut yourself some slack, take note of your talents and build on them.
This battle so to speak is only raging in those who have both the "old man" and the "new man"
In my terms, raging in the one who, having newly come to grips with the concept of community membership, its benefits and costs, nevertheless feels the tension of those parts of his individuality that the group rejects. I generalize because, in my limited investigations of the Great Religions (I am, after all, a biologist, not a theologian), I find this principle, which as I've said is common to all social animals, present in all of them.
Total surrender to the group, expressed in this case in terms of the defining metaphor(s) of the group (God, Jesus of Nazareth), renders the individual a slave to the group. Which is exactly what Paul calls himself with respect to the defining metaphor, Jesus.
Such surrender, such slavery, can actually be bliss (Paul's "new man") - because you no longer have to worry about what to do in case of "self vs. group" conflict. You have a mechanism for dealing with it. You either follow the explicit group directive or you take your best shot and, if you get it wrong, you apply to the group for forgiveness ("God's grace"). Which, in return for humility and acknowledgement of mistake, the group pledges to give you.
The weakness of the group's pledge is, IMO, why many people who experience "ecstatic conversion" (say, as a result of a Billy Graham crusade), express severe disappointment six months later. A lot of loners - ultimate "self" people - go to Billy Graham Crusades. If the convert is not embraced by a group (a congregation), it won't be long before the self reasserts itself. And curses the Christian louder than before.
Christianity advanced over Judaism, IMO, because (among many other things) it de-emphasized the "explicit group directive" part - Paul's "law", which was then, and is now, hopelessly complicated - and emphasized instead the "grace" part. The recognition that it is, in fact, easier to get forgiveness (grace) than permission (strict adherance to the Torah; cf. Jesus and the disciples gleaning on Saturday).
I worry about much Christian theory and practice - especially among those "Christians" who are influential in Washington - because they are themselves, in my view, focusing on the "explicit group directive" at the expense of "grace". On "what" you believe rather than "how". Precisely the kind of thing Paul had to face down in the Corinthian church.
As I have written on here before, I am most nervous about people who come to belief in what I consider to be historical falsehoods and half-truths. Because the core function of a group is to defend itself against other groups, and the group's belief system is essential for defining who's in the group and what that group is defending. Take away that belief and you destroy the group, and the individuals within it. If the core belief is faulty ... well, you're stuck with it.
And I do you no service by trying to correct "what" you believe, so long as "how" you believe is positive for both "insiders" and "outsiders". "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Chief you missed the TRUTH again!!!
once again great writing skills and I appreciate you giving me some confidence in my limited ability...however, what did you mean by "if the core belief is faulty"?...but what matters is what is the core belief of christianity?
When bad beliefs happen to good people
I would have a very hard time believing that Joseph Smith really did sit for days and translate a pack of script written on gold plates and transported to him by the angel Moroni (cf. Master Bates, used obliviously by Charles Dickens in Oliver Twist), telling him that American First Peoples were really descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Nevertheless the religion based on that claim is thriving.
The Scientology of L. Ron Hubbard was, it appears, founded on a dare, yet it now has millions of believers who appear to be doing well by it and are prepared to defend it; reactions to criticism of it are almost as virulent as those engendered by critics of fundamentalist Islam - or Protestantism.
There are those who firmly believe in Gnosticism, to considerable word counts and no apparent harm.
There are those who argue that Gospels, if they are history at all, are heavily reworked history intended to sell a Jewish sect to a mostly-Gentile audience. Some argue that the Passion of Jesus of Nazareth could not have taken place; that for it to have proceeded as described would have gotten Pontius Pilate pulled from his post PDQ, which didn't happen.
What is it about all these belief systems that promotes good communities out of doubtful, even in some cases (like Scientology) demonstrably wrong, accounts? That extends to the refusal of believers to accept that any of their core beliefs may be, in fact, wrong? This, to me, is the core human question. And because I can ask this question, rather than "believe" in Jesus Christ, or Muhammed, or Joseph Smith and his gold plates, is why I'll never be invited to speak at your college. :)
You didn't answer my question...
what are the faulty core beliefs?
Christian College!
There may be some hope for you yet Cashads:)
Yes, I got moorishprince to comment on my BLOG
The key to traffic and therefore more clicks is to get moorishprince to comment on your blog...this is probably the greatest thing that can happen to your blog...You know you have a successful BLOG when moorishprince comments...all I can say is Thanks!!!
Rome wasn't built in a DAY
90 reads...yeah!!! Let's go baby...come on moorishprince I need you to comment more!!!
Gnostic Paul in Romans 7:14-24
The Paul who writes in Romans 7:14-24 is purely Gnostic; this is just one of the great many places which are employed to indicate Paul's true beliefs. (Verse 25 is a later addition not written by Paul).
Best RG
http://bloggerparty.com/blog/gnosisquest
Behind every excuse lies a failure, to justify a failure only compounds its magnitude.
Yeah!!! Gnostic...dude that is funny!!!
Amazing how people think...the human mind is so smart, that it becomes stupid!!!
Unfunny!
No it is not funny, it is Gnostic!
The Hebrew deity created the body according to the Gnostics and the bodies with its compulsions were an evil trap according to most Gnostic philosophies at the time.
The strife between the mind and members of his body are the strife between the spiritual aspects which he is and the physical desires he has.
Paul was Gnostic; there is no way around that fact. (Check my blog regarding Paul and how even St. Irenaeus verified the Gnostic Paul).
Stupidity comes from wishful thinking; current religions are based on wishful thinking. Fixed opinions regarding religious aspects of Judaism, Islam and Christianity is the prime stupidity running rampant among humanity.
Best RG
http://bloggerparty.com/blog/gnosisquest
Behind every excuse lies a failure, to justify a failure only compounds its magnitude.
Wow...Paul the Gnostic...
Nah..doesn't sound right...sorry..prime stupidity is following people who actually believe that Paul was a Gnostic...Try again...
Doesn't sound right?
Maybe it doesn't sound right to you but that has no bearing on fact!
Prof. Pagels in the book "The Gnostic Paul" states that Rom 7:14b-25 was one of those parts of Paul’s writings given the most attention by The Valentinian Gnostics and quoted by them at great length, not to validate Paul as a Gnostic teacher but to show how Paul intended for the Gnostics to understand the spiritual message!
There is no doubt Paul was a Gnostic writer, the desires of those who would like him to have been a Christian is absurd.
In the early years of the Church there were different religious groups; Sethian Gnostics, Valentinian Gnostics and many more. The origin of these groups predates Christianity by a great many years.
Where St. Irenaeus in his refutation of Heresies discusses the Gnostic “Apocalypse of Paul
Nah, Sorry...Doesn't Sound right
Nah, sorry, you are misinformed again...You should stop reading books by people who make up their religion...that is a cult and you become a cult follower...try again!
Your made up religion.
Wrong again, Pagels is a professor at a university, teaching theology; I'm afraid you are the person making up a religion.
RG
Behind every excuse lies a failure, to justify a failure only compounds its magnitude.
WoW..What are you talking about?
I wasn't speaking about Pagels...once again...sorry, but you have been misinformed...try again. Oh, and Paul wasn't speaking to Gnostics...But Jews and Gentiles...Don't follow people who make up a cult, because then you become part of the cult.
The Gnostic Paul.
You do not address the issue at all; Paul was Gnostic as proven by Prof. Elaine Pagels in her book "The Gnostic Paul".
Furthermore, Romans 7:14-25 is Gnostic. When anyone describes their physical body as a "body of death" they are not worshippers of the Hebrew Deity.
When it comes to people with made up cults the greatest "made up cults" are those of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. These are also known as "the just in case cults".
(For further information regarding truth just read my blog).
RG
http://bloggerparty.com/blog/gnosisquest
Behind every excuse lies a failure, to justify a failure only compounds its magnitude.
nah, You are wrong again...and MISINFORMED!!!
nope, the physical body, is a body of death, full of sin, and also, it is going to die. Sorry you are wrong. And again you are misinformed. Paul is writing to Jews and Gentiles, not Gnostics...try again!!!
TRUE Love and TRUE Romance
Ah, the gold plates
The best part was when, after reading the gold plates to what's his name who "lost" the the transcripts... he read them again and they were completely different! And yet still the foundation for the belief of millions. I _really_ need to found a religion. So many gullible people, so much money burning holes in their pockets. Too bad so many of the good ideas are already taken. Muslims get all the virgin whores they can handle, Christians get to go to the land where everybody's always happy happy despite leading the most boring existence imaginable, Mormons get to be Jesuses of their own planets, most of the rest are gunna be born again to give life another shot... so what can I come up with to offer? Maybe I should just write a bunch of mediocre books and turn the plot line from one that is too awful to sell into my religion. Aw shit, someone beat me to that, too!