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the biblical claim to land is one i dont necessarily subscirbe
in terms of God promising anything. the ot is, however, a history of the people who wrote it, the jews, and recounts consistent population and rule of the land of israel by jews, not by muslims.
This is the belligerent, bombastic blog!
hmm ... a lot here ...
... and I will have to keep this short and incomplete for now.
Most of this is accurate as I understand it, and (especially with respect to portions older than about 600 BCE) as much as it can be understood given the state of the literary and archaeological evidence and our grasp of it. There is heavy dependence on testamental (Biblical) accounts, and though I think Gnosisquest goes entirely too far in his denunciation of same (I am suspicious of all proselytizers), it remains true that, with the possible exception of 2 Sam 9-20 plus 1 Kings 1-2 (the "Throne Succession Narrative"), the volume does not represent "history" as we know it today.
I also hasten to point out that such understanding as I may possess and express on this subject is as an amateur. The waters here get very deep very quickly, and no one without an ability to read and interpret the ancient languages, plus be on top of current archaeology and be au fait with the principles and practices of analytical history, should be trusted to know Jack.
The Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E.
It was of course not unoccupied. There were the Philistines, of course (scholars think that Goliath was originally "four cubits and a span", not six, making him a plausible six-footer and not the Bronze Age King Kong). More to the point, there were the Canaanites, whom the Hebrews were commanded to utterly destroy (you will find the rules for holy war - jihad - conveniently printed in Deuteronomy chapter 20). The writers of the Deuteronomic History (portions of Deuteronomy through 2 Kings) were miserably unhappy that this extermination did not occur as planned, and blamed the loss of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah on the apostasies that resulted from persistent Canaanite religious practices. They even composed a book (Joshua) to describe how the extermination should have happened. This thread is a persistent - and worrying - component of the Holy Book.
The Jewish people enjoyed brief periods of sovereignty afterward
Most particularly during the era of the Hasmoneans (Maccabees), who revolted against Greek Syria in the 2nd century BCE and established a theocracy - though they accepted Roman vassalage to accomplish this. Herod the Great claimed legitimacy from the Hasmoneans via marriage.
Jewish independence in the Land of Israel lasted for more than 400 years. This is much longer than Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States.
Though in its context (especially considering Egypt and Assyria), this was not a particularly long time. Nor was the state particularly robust. Solomon's Temple was, apparently, a poor imitation of more lavish structures in places like Memphis and Babylon.
I do not know enough of the complex history of Islam to understand the "Palestine" dynamic. But I think the Crusades had a lot to do with the establishment of the concept - and Arabian/Islamic resistance to it.
Gotta go ...
400 years not a long time, ocealleigh, listen to what you say, I
400 years not a long time, ocealleigh, listen to what you say, Iam merely pointing out precendent as far as who rules Israel. And I think the US is only 230 some odd years old but lots of people seem quite attached to it...come on.
the point is that Israel's history is more Jewish than Muslim, and that the Jewish people's history is all about israel as well as its religion almost idolizing Jerusalem while the Muslims never really cared about it. As an aside, all the battle stories in the OT - with the exception of the Maccabee revolt - are largely ignored by Jews, we focus on the other parts usually, the laws, the morality and justice issues, greater developed and analyzed in the talmud. All the Christians who are bible literate think they know what Judaism is all about, and they point to passages as proof. But that is simply NOT the way Jews read the Torah or behave (the jewish religion is better represented by the behaviour and values of its people, at the 613 Jewish commandments for a better idea, the writings of Maimonedes and Hillel, even of Schneerson but my favourite is Jewish Literacy by Telushkin, very readable and highly recommended but it is more a European's take on things, despite that I agree with almost every word of it. Consider the way the Jewish communities live their lives in other countries and contribute to society...I dont see any of them rioting in Paris or any other place, no Jew caught blowing up any metros, I see many cancer treatments centres and scientific studies donated by Jews, not that many by the Muslims, not even for their own people...
You cannot justify all acts of Muslim terrorism (yes, there are other non-Muslim terrorist groups but they have not been as active right in our back door recently so lets omit them for now) as the act of poor, innocent, oppressed and desperate people who have nothing else and no other way of achieving their goals. The opposite is true in the case of Palestine, and whether they are a true nation or not, they will get their land the MINUTE they truly renounce and cease their terrorism and incitement, the second they negotiate in good faith (what is Israel to do with a democratically elected terrorist group as a negotiating partner, one who wont acknowledge its existence and pledges its destruction???). The problem is that even in Egypt, our peaceful neighbour, the mainstream, government-controlled meda constantly report misinformation and propagate hate as well as cry crocodile tears for the Palestinians.
As a side note, you must concur that every Israeli-Palestinian fart is widely reported, front page news in faraway places while 30 THIRTY bus bombings in Thailand, millions slaughtered in Darfur, in the Congo, and suicide bombings in the Phillipines are under-reported.
This is the belligerent, bombastic blog!
belligerent indeed ...
400 years not a long time
Next to Egypt in particular, it is not. Some people remain very attached to the Confederate States of America, and that nation existed for a mere four years. The point was not to minimize one's attachment to a nation (you would appear to be very attached to the one under discussion), but to point out that, in historical terms as I understand them, the United/Divided Monarchy of Israel/Judah was not especially exceptional.
the Muslims never really cared about it.
Because Jerusalem is "merely" the third most important city in Islam, vs. the first in the eyes and minds of Jews (and Christians)?
the Christians who are bible literate think they know what Judaism is all about, and they point to passages as proof. But that is simply NOT the way Jews read the Torah or behave
I am glad to know this. The Christian phenomenon of "proof-texting" (quoting a passage of Scripture to support a particular belief) was a mystery to me - until I became acquainted with the Dead Sea Scrolls literature, and discovered the many instances of "prooftexting" that the "Teacher of Righteousness" and his disciples employed to make their political and religious points. The Qumran community which preserved the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the memory of the Teacher (apparently an opponent of the Hasmonean kings, particularly John Hyrcanus), was a part of the Jewish sect of Essenes. While I certainly am aware of the practice of many Jewish synagogues in this regard, I was concerned that others might be more Essene-like in their observances.
The opposite is true in the case of Palestine, and whether they are a true nation or not, they will get their land the MINUTE they truly renounce and cease their terrorism and incitement, the second they negotiate in good faith
It is precisely this claim that Flapan spends 200 pages refuting in The Birth of Israel. Had the claim come from a non-Jew, I would have immediately dismissed it. But since it has come from a Zionist with a long record as a government insider and a moderate, who had evidently examined many primary documents not usually considered in the more "official" histories of the state, it is not so easy for me to set aside.
Incidentally, it is a point for your side that this book even exists. I reckon any Palestinian Arab who attempted to put such a book together from the non-militant Arab perspective, at the time (80s) that Flapan produced his, would have had to do so from exile. If even that would have served to preserve his life.
the mainstream, government-controlled meda constantly report misinformation and propagate hate as well as cry crocodile tears for the Palestinians.
My understanding is that if they did otherwise, the moderates in Egypt would suffer the fate of Anwar Sadat, and there would be once again an active enemy on Israel's Sinai border. The propaganda sword has many edges ...
while THIRTY bus bombings in Thailand, millions slaughtered in Darfur, in the Congo, and suicide bombings in the Phillipines are under-reported.
For once we agree. Of course, the Middle East is a special case. Not very many Friday, Saturday or Sunday services speak of Holy Bangkok. We are very selective in our paying attention. And not often very wise about our selectivity.
the concept of Palestinian peoplehood or nationhood was created
ONLY after 1948 and gained greater force the more Israel thrived.
This is the belligerent, bombastic blog!
ocalleigh you dont even respond to the main points I raise and t
Arab quotes which prove that the Pal nation concept did not exist then...
This is the belligerent, bombastic blog!
A Must Read is:
Jews,God,& History by Max Dimont. I've owned several copies...the last one Hard Copy because I knew I wouldn't loan it out and lose it.
During the time Abraham entered Israel the place was teeming with people, towns, etc.....