but you must realize it can be lost.

djbtol

There was never any way to win - we were losers the minute we fired the first round. And we've been beating our heads against that brick wall of lies ever since.

You surely did!

have begun to make progress on the process they started back in 2006, before the surge started, all the pro-war right-wingers are trying to take credit for it by claiming that it was the result of the surge. Well, I'm not surprised. And frankly, I wouldn't even argue the point, progress is progress and there's really no sense is arguing about how we got there, except for the fact that, if there's a backslide and things heat up again and we allow credit to be given to this surge, there's too great a chance that we'll allow another push like this one to happen instead of getting ourselves out of there.

We've just got to focus on getting out and trying to repair some of the damage that we've done to ourselves.

as long as the credit does not got to the U.S. military, right.

djbtol

The troops deserve to be revered - I mean that literally - because of their dedication and willingness to give their lives when their country asks it of them. Even the ones who don't agree with the current politics have served with distinction. That does not go for the operation itself. It's a case of the forest and the trees.

I think I just lost a point becuase of your name. Feel better?

djbtol

I know you are not confusing a Pussy Willow with a vagina.

but apparently blogger party was. Can't see any other reason why I would lose a point for a one line comment that was not nasty.

djbtol

That's happened to me a couple of times and I have no idea why. One time I tried to leave the comment 3 times and lost a point every time. And it was a really tame comment, too. I figured gremlins had gotten into the works.

once success was evident, the mainstream media couldn't get Iraq off the front page fast enough. Heaven forbid that people learn the truth. Prior to that the only thing on the front page was bad news from Iraq. Not that hard to see the agenda, if you try.

djbtol

says that I don't say anything substantive.

djbtol

I knew you had it in you! This is a very good discussion you've started. You should do it more often.

and there is so much more that should be said.

djbtol
(one who is bitter, clinging to guns and religion)

This is an intelligent conversation. Hell, man, I don't hold it against you when I disagree with you on issues. Sure, I still think I'm right. But I also think that you have a right to your opinion.

What I hate is meanness and lies and twisting the truth. For example: Yes, Obama did say that a certain section of the country was bitter about the economy and that they clung to gun rights and religion in order to help themselves deal with what is happening to them on the financial level - because they felt so out of control over their financial situation and they were fighting to retain control over other areas of their lives - like gun rights and religion. But it's all the other stuff he said at the same time, on the same subject, that puts that all into perspective. He was talking about relating to those people and the issues behind their bitterness. He was talking about coming up with solutions to help those people live better lives - with jobs and financial security.

He was not putting those people down. And frankly, he hit the nail on the head with them. He hit the nail on the head with me. I'm bitter over my financial issues, which are a direct result of the crappy economy and a corrupt government. I may not talk alot about gun rights but I do have some very firm opinions about them - maybe the same as yours, who knows. I do talk alot about religious rights. Maybe the fact that I'm not a Christian puts me on the other side of that issue in your eyes. But I'm clinging to my religious rights just as doggedly and fanatically as any Christian.

What Obama said was very intelligent and empathetic and if it had been said by anyone other than a politician it would have been interpreted quite differently. But because he is a politician and because he is not the one you intend to vote for, you continue to twist what he said so that it means something entirely different and then you use that twisted version, which is, in fact, a lie, to put forth your opinions about him.

Using lies, using bigotry and meanness to try and win your argument is just about the lowest thing you can do. So, of course I am proud of you when you don't do that. When you show your intelligence and actually talk about an issue you have the opportunity to teach people things. Yes, even people who don't agree with you can learn things from you.