Is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION a Joke?

Does Affirmative Action work? Is it helping society or doing more harm than good?

(I wrote this this morning. When I logged on tonight and saw D Weezy's Blog, I figured this is probably a perfect time to post.)

What is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION supposed to do?
Affirmative action generally means giving preferential treatment to minorities in admission to universities or employment in government & businesses. The policies were originally developed to correct decades of discrimination and to give disadvantaged minorities a boost. The diversity of our current society (as opposed to that of 50 years ago) seems to indicate the programs have been a success. But now, many think the policies are no longer needed and that they lead to more problems than they solve.

One notable example is a case recently argued in the Supreme Court concerning admissions to the University of Michigan. The school had a policy of rating potential applicants on a point system. Being a minority student earned you more than twice as many points as achieving a perfect SAT score. Three white students sued citing this as raced-based discrimination. School officials said that diversity is desirable and affirmative action is the only way to achieve true diversity. Several other cases involving affirmative action have followed similar arguments.

Some of the most noted issues with Affirmative action:

1. REVERSE DISCRIMINATION - Affirmative action is designed to end discrimination and unfair treatment of employees/students based on color, but it in effect does the opposite. Whites who work harder and/or are more qualified can be passed over strictly because they are white. Contrary to many stereotypes, many minorities fall into the middle or upper class, and many whites live in poverty. Unfortunately, the way things are set up now, a poverty-stricken white student who uses discipline and hard work to become the best he can be can be passed over by a rich minority student who doesn't put in much effort at all. Is this fair? No. However, this isn’t the case every time either. But still, should we reward students based on race or based on achievement?

2. - When you apply for a job or fill out a college application, how often are asked about things like your hair color, eye color, or height? Unless it's for a modeling or athletic position, probably never. Why? It's because hair & eye color or height don't have any effect on your ability to do a job or succeed at a school. There's no association between hair/eye color and intelligence, discipline, ambition, character, or other essentials. Thus, it's useless to even ask about the information. Conversely, there's no association between skin color and intelligence/discipline/etc. So why do we keep drawing attention to it? Wouldn't it be great if we one day lived in a society when skin color was ignored as much as hair & eye color? Unfortunately jobs must hire a particular number of minorities/non-minorities. This truly does help prevent racist bosses from having an all white (or black) staff. But at the same time it can be unfair to both parties. The boss is still racist at the end of the day.

3. IS AFFIRMITAVE ACTION an INSULT? When you give preferential treatment to minorities in admission or hiring practices, you're in effect saying "You're too stupid or incapable of achieving on your own, so let me help you". It is condescending and insulting to imply that minorities cannot achieve their goals through hard work and ability. Ask Condi Rice or Colin Powell how they got to where they are -- hard work or affirmative action? Both were hired because they are bright, articulate, and well-suited for their positions. My guess is that both would be offended if you said they got to where they were strictly because of affirmative action. The same can be said of minority doctors, lawyers, business leaders, etc. Too often, their achievements are demeaned by people who believe preferential treatment got them to their current positions. Minorities must then work twice as hard to earn respect.

MY OPINION: I have heard many people say that Affirmative Action is a crime in itself. Both whites and minorities seem to think so. I like that employers must hire minorities. I wish we didn’t have to make this a law, but unfortunately we do. I don’t like the idea of giving additional credits in college or promotions on the job just because of race. This does seem like it provokes racism instead of helping prevent it. What’s the solution?
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WANT THE "Devils Dictionary" Definition of AFFIRMATIVE ACTION?
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SOURCES –
http://www.balancedpolitics.org/affirmative_action.htm

I'm black. I have been admitted to colleges as well as post graduate institutions. I have had many jobs. At no point have I ever felt like I was accepted to a school or received a job offer because a quota needed to be filled. I always feel as qualified and deserving as anyone. Having said that, I cannot be sure that I was not admitted to school or offered jobs as a result of Affirmative Action. My basic feeling is that perhaps if this issue were not made a priority I might not have the opportunity. Someone may think I got a particular position because of Affirmative Action, but the bottom line is, you cannot deny results. And believe me, I am not preventing a white person from advancing.

here's my thoughts:

As a black man, I would feel like crap and might even turn down a position if I was receiving it only because I was black.

All my life my parents have pushed me to work hard, focus on school, and excel at the things I need too to get a job.

These are simple values that any child, black/white/asian etc should have.

So then why should I be rewarded something if there is a more qualified white guy in front of me? That's bullshit to that white dude and insulting to me.

That being said as far as I know I've never benifited from AA(through out high school I always maintained a high gpa and except for a rough fresh year in collge, my grades have always been high.) I've recieved dozen's of academic awards and such(which aren't based on race) so on that note, I'd like to think that everything I've gotten thus far, I've earned-but to be rational about it, you never truely know.

I understand the logic for Afirmitive Action-if you(a white guy in his 60's) has two equally qualified canidates before, one black, one white, it maybe the tendency to go with the white guy. Unless he had to fill the quota.

On the other hand..if it was a 60 year old black man doing the hiring(although there nearly as many as there are white guys doing the hiring) they'd tend to probably go with the black guy.

I guess bottom line is that AA lowers the standards for blacks when in reality it should be policy to raise blacks up to an equal playing field as whites.

And also..on the idea of a "colorblind" country is so dumb to me. Color of people's skins are as much part of their heritage as the language they speak, or the customs they practice. To simply ignore a jamican's color might be like ignoring their religion. It should just be a country of accepting people's color and running with it.

Are there differences between whites and blacks? Some..but if you ask me, it's mostly a social/class issue. From what I've seen, poor people, black or white, are poor and live teh same way. Just how working class and upper class act differently from each other.

Thanks for the feedback. I really love your responses. So do you guys wish that Affirmative Action was aboloished? Being white, I can't say I have ever personally been in a situation like this. Who knows, maybe I am in one now. I am one of three white girls working at an establishment with about 20 black employees. I too would be embarrassed and angry to discover that I was only given my job based on the fact that I am white. Maybe Affirmative Action is a joke?

And Drake - I completely agree w/ your points about "A color Blind Society". Why do we have to hide from our culture?

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As you already know I'm also Black. Unlike my boys James and Drake I know have benefitted from programs like affirmative action. It wasn't exactly affirmative action because I wasn't competing against whites. Let me explain: when I was in eigth grade I was selected to be a program called A Better Chance. The purpose of this program was to take minority children out of bad/low performing school districts and place them in good/high performing school districts across the country for high school. Because of this program I got to go to high school in what was the second best public school district in the country at the time.

This is where I think affirmative action came in handy (i say "came" because honestly I don't know if the case is still the same today). AA gave minorities the opportunity to do things that their white counterparts got to do everyday. I think this is a good thing.

AA becomes a problem, however, when minorities just take those opportunities and don't make any thing out of them. Sure I wouldn't have been able to go to the high school I went to under normal circumstances, but once I got there I made sure they wanted me to stay. I took all the honors classes and got good grades.

It is in these situations when AA can become insulting. When a white person wants to concentrate on how you got where you are instead of the job you're doing there it is definitely a slap in the face.

As for James and Drake, I would encourage them to think back to when they were applying for colleges. I would ask them if they checked the box marked "African-American". I know if they are anything like me (which I know they are), then they probably checked that box. This is not to say we wouldn't have gotten into college without that box cuz I'm sure we would have. BUT, I'm sure by checking that box that I only helped my odds of getting into certain schools.

In your case D, AA was a good thing. I wish that were every case. So it sounds like you approve of Affirmative Action as a whole?
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Yes, there are many who have benefited from Affirmative Action. Those would initially be White Americans. The joke played on America is in tying Affirmative Action to the African American and other cultures as opposed to White Culture. Consider the institutions in America--educational, social, and financial--that have been created initially for the benefit of White Americans. There of course were no complaints! But it is an undeniable fact that White America has been hiring, promoting, and giving out unearned benefits to its own for centuries.

The next step in the game is to get African American's to agree that AA is an insult by brining up the concept of merit. Here's an exercise to engage in! The next time any of you hear about how many African Americans that have made the grade (such as Colin Powell and C, Rice), ask the question how it is that an invidividual such as your President can hold office for two terms. This is AA at it's best! And then consider all of the incompetent White Americans placed in positions daily--through no merit of their own.

Surely AA is an irritation to many white people, but only because there is the perception that benefits are lost at the expense of other cultures.

I don't think that white people are "irritated" by Affirmative Action. To say that AA is a joke because it is tied to to African American culture is the wrong idea. AA was created for minorities. I don't think it's right for "white America" to give out unearned benefits, as you put it, either. I am not here to debate one wrong from another. The point is; is AA is good thing? Should people be given things based on the color of their skin? As Drake Bobby pointed out, he would feel awful being given a job because he was black. I responded with the same kind of scenario. I can't imagine any person being proud of being "handed" something ONLY because they are a minority. At the same time, I don't want to be given things just for being white.

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If this weren't the case, you wouldn't see so much controversy surrounding it. I said that the debate surrounding Affirmative action is a joke--not because it is tied to black culture---but rather because it is covertly tied to the very fabric of white culture. The concept of Affirmative action was created for minorities (while in fact the very word minority is a white "derivative")...it was a lable thrust upon them! Mr. Drake is simply one individual voicing an opinion, and is not to be confused with the millions of Black Americans who know the "time of day". In fact, Mr. Drake is an example of the extraordinary effect of reverse psychology.

The truth of the matter is that you have in fact been given things solely on the basis of bein white. Don't forget, I'm on the inside looking out, and I speak from personal experience. The trap that many whites fall into-----is in thinking that the so-called opportunities given by the "act" of affirmative action are hand-outs---and therefore worthy of disdain by the Black Man or Woman. This is the programming that we continue to heap upon the various cultures of America. These positions that blacks are/were given are meritorious simply from the historical ramifications of a race being held back for centuries.

The correct thinking (as well as the truth) is that we have been accepting favors and privileges all of our lives without a second thought. The fact that we would consciously reject unearned privileges has no merit in a world in which they are there for us--whether we accept them or not.

As a white man, I would tell any African American (male or female) to grab what is yours at every opportunity....and to be proud in the process. I tell Black Americans at every opportunity that we as White Americans don't look at unearned privileges as hand-outs...rather we look at them as a "RIGHT" within itself.

This is no debate! It's simply the truth:)

I would feel bad if I got a job simply because I am black. I would feel worse if I did not get a job simply because I am black. So I do not mind that AA may give a few more opportunities to black people based on skin color because generally I do not think these peopl are incompetent, rather it makes it so they have to get a chance. Like I said even if black people are afforded a few extra opportunities based on skin color, it is not at the expense of preventing white people from advancing. Look around. How many black Senators can you name? How many black heads of fortune 500 companies can you name? Now how many rappers and athletes can you name? A shitload I'm guessing. Because that's all black people have is sports and entertainment and that needs to change.

Excellent points James!
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I hesitate to enter into this fray because I know I don't know enough. I am, for one thing, white, which pretty much prevents me from knowing what it is to walk (I mean really walk, not just watch the movie) in a black man's shoes. On the other hand, I'm not too far removed from "No Irish Need Apply" signs either, or from having my family history falsified for me because my grandfather died, not from an accident, but from tuberculosis, "just like a filthy mick." There are other prejudices than color ... during the years of and after the Civil War, Anglos were only too happy to stand back and let the Irish and the African beat each other to bloody pulps for the privilege of standing at the bottom of the Anglo social order. That battle was still going on in South Boston in the '70s (or have we forgotten the Black/Irish riots over court-ordered school integration there).

The dilemma of Affirmative Action that I perceive is that it offers an aspect of culture to people with limited experience of that culture - for example, the culture of science (yes there is such a thing). The people making the offer are apprehensive, I suggest, because they're pissing off people who know the culture and had expectations of a position in that culture before they found out about the Affirmative Action offer. The people receiving the offer are apprehensive, I suggest, because they are unsure of what they're getting into.

What's worse, the people making the offer are, frequently, making assumptions about how those receiving the offer should respond to it - assumptions that are themselves established by culture. "Gratitude" and "diligence" are two Anglo assumptions that come to mind - which, perhaps, provoke "Uncle Tom" reactions among the recipients.

Under these circumstances, it's perhaps not surprising that AA has generated so much heat, and its application has become so corrupted, so that "the Senator's cousin will still get the job".

The corruption of Affirmative Action is really that of White America. As a White American, I keep making the statement, yet if falls on deaf ears. There is no anger here, just a sadness that we can't see the "forest"--- for the trees. You are correct that there are other bias' other than color. But there is no bias as difficult to overcome like that of color! You or I have the option of slipping through the concourse as if we were invivsible to the eyes that scrutinize African Americans.

Yes, there's hope. But as a social scientist, I'm always aware of cause and effect on a higher plane than most people. The only thing I can do is to keep crying in the wilderness.

Thanks for the thoughts:)

The gender component was slapped home to me in another - and in my eyes utterly despicable - blog posted on these pages earlier today. A blog in which the wrong actions of a few are being used to castigate a whole class (women). Exactly the actions expected of a group who consider themselves culturally in and feel entitled to the rewards thereof, only to be angered when those benefits are extended to "outsiders" by the far-sighted leaders of the ingroup. A group most likely to undermine and ultimately corrupt the process.

You probably know better than I that the color divide in the US is stronger than in many other places, thanks to the political divide between slavery and non-slavery in this country and the Civil War that eventually resulted from it. This history makes the black man all the move visible to scrutinizing eyes.

You might do well to ask a woman about that concourse. Mammaries are as conspicuous as melanin. And women's emancipation has come later, and is far more technology dependent, than black emancipation. What's more, male apprehension about the ascendancy of women may be more primal, and substantial, than that of whites for blacks. To those who know of the extreme radical feminism of bees and ants, and the evolutionary history that led to its formation and maintenance, the vagina might really have some teeth to it. I do not desire chattel, but neither will I countenance being made a drone.

However, in writing all of this I come dangerously close to committing the Marxist fallacy, that of thinking that a bunch of bourgeois intellectuals can understand, and stand for, the needs and desires of workers. A bunch of white guys for the desires of black men. A bunch of males for the needs of women. What I can hope for is that, in promoting the values of all, I can retain an equal portion, rather than being caught in the backlash and whipped into servitude, or nonexistence. Unfortunately, we humans don't have a good track record of being able to handle true equality. Hierarchies, especially stereotyped ones, work much better. At least for those on top.

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Is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION a Joke?

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I'm black. I have been

here's my thoughts: As a

Drake Bobby & James

Reality of it...

In Your Case

Affirmative Action Is No Joke!

Affirmative Action vs "Whites"

White People are in fact irritated by Affirmative Action!

AA is a good thing

Great Points James

Sound and fury, signifying ... ?

The Truth About Affirmative Action Once Again!

Affirmative Action: color ... and gender ...

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