I once heard someone say that Islam always had "bloody borders", the difference this time is, as you suggest, the world is getting smaller. Further, in times past wars were conducted with sword & horse and were thusly self-limited in extent. Now we have aircraft and nuclear weapons and all are at risk.

You are correct that both sides (western civilization and Islam) don't/won't understand each other, the sides are fundamentally incompatible by definition. The West believes in separation of church and state, while in Islam there's no difference: the faith IS the state. There are many other points of incompatibility.

There can be only a few outcomes here if compromises can not be achieved. Nuclear war, either started by the West as a defense, or by Islam as jihad, is a real possibility.

As Rodney King said, "Why can't we all get along?" That will never happen until knuckle-heads on both sides can loose faith with their religions. Alas, that will take generations. Does the world have time?

You can't look at reactions to the reactions to the reactions expect to find therein a solution, or as Einstein pointed out, the solution can't be found within the paradigm of the statement of the problem. Sorry, but I love these logic games--the plain truth of it is that the solution to the problem cannot be found by looking at the problem, but rather by looking at the world that exists when that problem is no longer there.

Now, the fact is that this is not so difficult to do. Nor does it take an extraordinary about at imagination and creativity. The fact is that there is a lot of investment in the problems and therefore a lot of resistance to doing anything that might solve the problems. The investment exists within small social hierarchies in moslem communities and the investment exists in large corporate structures that are global, encompassing both islamic and actually, every ethnic brand that exists, with the exception of those tiny enclaves of 3rd world cultures on the Pacific Islands and elsewhere.

Never the less, it is possible to create solutions within our own economic island, and within the global community that will erode the "problem" culture from this inside out. Technology can and does facilitate such solutions. Again, I apologize for speaking in general rather than in terms of a specific example. In part I don't have time for that right now, and in part I have not come up with a 25 word description. But if you think in terms of common social activities, events and locations where community occurs, and ways in which technology can be implemented to create opportunities for cross cultural communications and relationship, perhaps you will come up with some ideas yourself.

Remember--it's not about the symptoms. It has nothing to do with the rationalizations for behavior nor even the emotional state of those who are acting out. It has everything to do with the way people learn to perceive the world, how they define the world and how they experience relationship with the world.

Michael Winn
http://thedelmarnews.blogspot.com

I give you a quote from Thomas Friedman's editorial in today's New York Times:

"My point is simple: the wolrd is drifting dangerously toward a widespread religious and sectarian cleavage - the likes of which we have not seen for a long, long time."

He said that in reference to a number of current events with common themes; one of those events being the violent Muslim protests of the cartoons of Mohammed.

In terms of finding a solution he points out that hopefully America will set an example of remaining open to other peoples and cultures.

I'm personally just not sure how much longer that's possible. Doesn't it take "two to tango"?

And do we have willing partners? Or do we have instead religious fundamentalists determined to impose their ways?

Who is more ridiculous, people rampaging and killing over a cartoon or a radical religious right that will empower their obviously lying president to do anything he wants simply because he claims he's religious? Lines are being divided. World Wars have been fought over less. Fighting others' battles is for losers! I for one plan on getting Drunk, Stoned and Laid for the impending Apocalypse. Why not visit my wildly succesful blog to learn more?

http://bloggerparty.com/your_sensechange_guide_to_the_apocalypse

Cheers! And F.Y! All of you!

-SenseChange

hahahahahahaha~ got Mad Dog?

You point out that we have a fair share of religious nuts in the USA as well as in the Muslim world.

Yes that is obviously and unfortunately true as even some people who post blogs on this website have made amply clear.

But at least in this country we can voice our opposition to the "religio nuts."

We can tell that we're fed up - even if it's just on a blog like this one.

And, even though it has not proven effective yet in terms of the current administration, we can eventually hold accountable at elections politicians who are propped up by fundamentalists.

So, our values of freedom of expression and thought are still here in this country to deal with the home grown variety of fanatics.

I'm not so sure that is the case in the muslim world that is, in my opinion, staging one assault after another on western countries and western values.

In regards to your solution; that's funny, have fun.

But that's pretty much the solution we've been pursuing for some time.

That's why we were all so surprised on 9/11.

That seems to be why we'll all be so surprised at the next cross cultural catastrophe as well..............

You've got a point there~

yeah, i know, sensechange is having all the fun and i'm stuck with my point..................

oh well..................

hahahaha~ but.........but........you made such a GOOD point!

I'll save some Boone's Farm for YOU, baby.

You know what? That post was so good I'm turnin' it into a blog! I know I'm my own biggest fan! Don't care!

-SenseChange

p.p. Drunk.

Damn Right, Shiva Shankar! You scratch my nutz and I'll scratch...well...thanks fer scratchin' my nutz! (need to know if you're a BOY or a GIRL - no offense either way) And hey, dude, me having fun banging strippers and smoking the good Ganj as the whole world goes up in flames, that's worst case scenario, dude! Which is still pretty damn good if yer ol' SenseChange.

But I firmly maintain that it doesn't necessarily have to go that route. Though thus far I've only written -and extremely eloquently, I must admit- the astonishingly popular, paradigm-fracturing "SenseChange Guide to the Apocalypse," (available here: http://www.writingup.com/sensechange/your_sensechange_guide_to_the_impending_apocalypse) I promise you, Shiva, I will write the other side, how I hope it all turns out, AKA "The SenseChange Guide to the Impending Renaissance."

Have no fears, your membership to Literary Immortality is assured.

-SenseChange

p.p. Peace.

I'm a guy, Shiva is the name of a man, but, like you said, no offense.

I went to that link and i read your account of the apocolypse.

If i understood the subtle currents of your thought on that blog post then it went something like this:

World War 3 has already started; so, let's party (in a bunker)!

No, i'm just joking. You make a good point that WW 3 is already underway and you make another good point that when we have to hide out in bunkers we might as well have a good time doing so.

take it easy.

You got 'er my man. One thing: though the war has already started, I still believe Man has a chance to stop it. It will require a lot more work to stop it than to just let it rage out of control. I am of the opinion it will require a Renaissance. But fortunately, we're due. More on the Renaissance when I'm done lashing together the 'SenseChange Guide to the Renaissance'. Coming soon to a blog near you.

-Change

p.p. feel like an arse about the Shiva being a man's name thing. Exposing one's own ignorance is exposing one's weakness. But you were good about it. Keep bloggin!

That may be so; but, i think Anonymous pointed out above one of the main problems: do we have time?

He also filled in the remaining first line of the poem on which the name of this blog post is based,

"Had we but world enough, and time..."

Nice terminology, "transcend or end."

I'm glad that there's still the type of optimism out there like you express in that comment above.

Human nature being what it is, however, i have a hard time sharing that optimism.

You are right that people like you and me and johnny could try to exert a positive influence..........

(i'm not really sure about johnny............ last time i wrote a comment on his blog i think he expressed some disdain for what he called my "screwed up beliefs....")

And we can, as you mentioned, communicate like never before through mediums like the internet and even blogs like this one.

But the same can be said for Al qaeda.

Think about it. Just suppose that there is, as you "sense," a defining moment for humanity approaching. OK, well take a look at humanity, what do you see..........?

do you really thing it's ready for a defining moment......?

End or Transcend. No middle ground. And it's coming soon, whether we're ready for it or not.

And you know what? I'd LOVE to have a BlogChat with an Al Quaeda member! (now I did it, gonna get bookmarked by the CIA now. And you too. Sorry dude, but maybe they'll end up clicking ads?). I think people should be trying like motherfuckers to talk to these dudes. Ultimately, terrorism is a fucked up way of communicating. They're not trying to scare you just for the sake of scaring you, they're scaring you to draw attention to a cause. Did it work? Well, we're all thinking a whole lot more about the MidEast these days, aren't we?

A couple days after 911, Dubya said the terrorists did it cuz they hate Freedom. Well,I bet if you interviewed ANY member of ANY terrorist group in the history of History, the last motivation they would have for doing the awful shit they do is because they 'hate Freedom'. I would be interested in their real motivation, just as I am interested in learning anything else I can about that day, not over-simplified and politically safe wrong answers.

-SC

Cool idea - a blog chat with a member of al qaeda.

(I wouldn’t mind eavesdropping on that one, maybe the NSA could set me up………..)

That kind of gets back to the original question of this blog.

Is communication possible with a huge segment of the world that seems to be at cross-cultural odds with us?

What motivated the Terrorists to slam those planes into the world trade center?

What is motivating hordes of angry Muslims to rampage in protest of some cartoons of Mohammed?

So, maybe you could get set up with your blog chat with an al qaeda member, go for it,

But then what………?

Don’t get me wrong. You’re right when you say that we have to communicate with them. In fact, that’s our only hope so far as I can tell.

As the world gets smaller, we have to figure out how to communicate with other cultures if we all are to survive.

All I’m saying is this: it appears to me like they don’t want to hear it. That is, they’re not interested in our opinion on anything; rather, they’re interested in imposing their own ways whether we like it or not.

They don’t like it that we published pictures of Mohammed………? Well, in that case they’re going to burn our embassies down………….

And are we really going to be all that much conciliatory ourselves? When it comes down to it, we’re not going to budge on issues like separation of church and state.

So, when we hit these impasses on which neither side will give any ground………….

I don’t know what happens then.